Episode 14: Deborah Carter - Will Our Kids Just Consume Technology Or Reimagine it?
Deborah Carter:
[00:00:00]
We're failing our kids. If we don't give them this kind of know-how, what if we get it right? Sorry, I paused there, I hesitated. It is my personal mission to de-segregate this narrative around technology that says it's just White and Asian guys that are running the show because it is not.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:00:23]
Welcome to Episode 14 of What If We Get It Right. I'm Tessa Wernink, a Social Entrepreneur and I've teamed up with Impossible, home of Planet Centric design. Together, we bring you stories about how to build businesses that can move the world in a new direction.
Today I speak to Deborah Carter, Founder & Business Director of New Tech Kids, and more recently Managing Director and Initiator of Preparation Tech, all with the aim of transforming children from passive technology users into passionate inventors.
Deborah Carter:
[00:00:57]
New Tech kids is a Tech Education Academy for primary school aged kids in Amsterdam. We target kids which are between age 4 and 12. And basically what that is, we teach kids about technology, how it works, why it works, and how to think in order to create technology solutions. So, our focus really isn't, we don't want to be creating the next generation of programmers and developers and stuff.
That's not it because not every kid wants to be like a hardcore geek. What we want to do is to give all kids a foundation, to understand the technology around them. And give them option should they choose, should they be interested to get into tech.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:01:41] After working some time in technology companies and seeing the process of how to develop new products and services, Deborah understood the importance of 21st century skills when it comes to actively shaping our careers.
When I caught up with her in December 2020, I wanted to find out what drives Deborah to do what she does. How she understands tech education and specifically how entrepreneurs like her can compliment or reinvigorate existing education systems.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:02:12]
Good morning, Deborah. Nice to see you here on this cold day in Amsterdam. You started this business obviously as an entrepreneur, and I I'd love to hear a little bit more, a lot more about all these different things that you mentioned, but can you tell me why you started a business? What was the context in which you're operating now or the problem that you saw?
Deborah Carter:
[00:02:32]
Well, it was a deeply personal one. I had a kid, I have a son and he was 7 years old at the time. And he was not learning anything in school, except for how to use technology. And, you know, coming from a background of working with tech companies and innovation and seeing, you know, the process of how they develop products and services and the fact that there's not enough people, there's not enough talent out there to do that.
And then to flip it and see a kid that's really starting school and having no background that really bothered me because we're failing our kids. If we don't give them this kind of know-how. So it was a deeply personal reason for starting New Tech Kids. And, you know, on the business side, I thought, well no one's doing it.
So this is an opportunity. So why not just be the first mover and get into the market. And so that's what we did.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:03:23]
What is the kind of future that you're working towards when you think about your enterprise and your mission?
Deborah Carter:
[00:03:28]
Well, I think the future I see is a future where like, you know, everybody's focused on talent and on skills and on knowledge and everything else.
And I think the future belongs to, the focus should be on mindset. That's going to be the secret weapon. And, you know, mindset does relate to your skills and your knowledge and stuff. But I think that what you will see in the future are these clusters of people with similar mindsets. It's happening already now.
But mindset will tell you a lot more about a person than just their technical skills and knowledge, right? Because if you've got a mindset that will help you to seek out all of the skills and the knowledge you need, which, which jives with your mindset, so to speak. So I think smart businesses, smart companies, smart organizations will focus more on mindset development. I'll just refer to an interview that I did with a young Chinese woman who is studying in Canada. And I interviewed her for my Preparation Tech series, which I'll talk about later. And, you know, she said something in China, you know, the schools, the parents are focused on locking in the mindset of hard work and just grit in the younger years. Right?
So, if you look at primary school, it's a grind man. It's hard. They work these kids. These kids are studying 13 hours, but they do it because they want to entrench the mindset early. And then when they get to university, things get really easy. You know, and they said, and this lady said is exactly opposite in the West.
Right? They have primary school is fun and play and everything else, and then they slam you in University, but it's too late because your mindset is already done. And I'm not saying either one is better, but there is some, there's a grain of wisdom to what she's saying.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:05:29]
Can you tell me a little bit more about what is a mindset, cause you have a growth mindset, for example.
Deborah Carter:
[00:05:33]
Yeah, I think, yeah, that Carol Dweck's research on mindset is really interesting. I think mindset really is, comes down to like the values and the behavior that you exhibit. Right?
So we can talk. I mean, a lot of people know about the fixed versus a growth mindset and stuff, but I really think in a practical way, especially when you're related to technology, what does a growth mindset look like?
It looks like people who can identify their passions and their interests and their convictions, and then they will find the resources they need to actually act on that. And so, in the context of technology and kids, that's a kid that, you know, will be on the internet for hours to find out what they're really interested in.
Then they will watch all the YouTube videos they can about it. And then they'll find like some kind of activity, whether it's a programming class or you know, game designs, something to follow it through and start developing their skills for that. They will jump into programmer forums or something or participate in online hackathons or competitions.
So, mindset is really also related to identifying your interests, but then acting on them and pursuing skills and knowledge and mastery.
Curiosity, big thing, everybody I talked to, I say, well, what are, what's the most important, mindset that you can have or personal characteristics? And I would say 9 out of 10, say curiosity.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:07:12]
And when you say like the future that we work towards, I'm going to say like to summarize, a bit has to do with what kind of mindsets we're developing. You're in education, but what else needs to happen? Like who else needs to get involved to get towards this future?
Deborah Carter:
[00:07:25]
That's a really good question. Who else has to get involved?
Well, I liked the idea of the adult influencers, right? Parents, caregivers, big, the first exposure to mindset and the ones that set the foundation are parents. Of course educators right? Your teachers, your school and what your school stands for. But I think there's also other factors and these could be like the role models of people that inspire kids, you know, and this is where diversity and inclusion come in. And it's so important that, you know, in the tech world, how many times we hear about Steve jobs, Mark Zuckerberg. I am so tired of hearing about these guys. They don't inspire me.
I'm sorry. I think they benefit from a lot of privilege. I will respect that they've done well and done amazing things, but you know, the grind and the challenges and the adversity, they may have faced them. But, oh my gosh, there's so many people out there who have defied the odds in much greater ways.
So I think as the stories of little people that you can relate to, you know, for my interview series, people are, it's saying, yeah, you got to interview really famous people, famous people all the time. And I'm like, you know what? Yeah, I understand that. And I will, but I want to hear the stories of the normal person that people can relate to.
And I have to tell you, some of their stories are much more, much more interesting than the big names.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:08:55]
How are you measuring whether you're like, can you see that you're making an impact or getting to the future that you want it to be?
Deborah Carter:
[00:09:03]
At New Tech kids, there's so many stories I could tell you. I think in the context of New Tech Kids and teaching kids, if we see kids that repeat our programs, particularly girls and kids of color then I'm like, yo, we have made a difference. The other thing is so we teach from age, let's say like 4 to 12. So, if I keep in touch with the parents and if I hear the parents say, you know what, our girl or boy chose a high school with a special technology track. Big. That means that the learning experience gave them resonated so much that they want to continue on. This path are New Tech kids. Our goal is not to make them into like these expert computer scientists. It’s to peak their interest and then if they can take that interest in manifested in other ways.
That's great. So, if we hear that the kids that graduated from our programs are now going to high school and doing technology or research and innovation or coding, happy.
When it comes to Preparation Tech, my interview series, uh, something happened yesterday. So we're just getting started, right. So, we don't have a lot of eyeballs and you know, all the sponsors and say, we want to see a lot of eyeballs, but it takes time, right.
Oh my gosh. But yesterday, So I'm looking on LinkedIn to see who's watching and stuff. And I got a history professor, right in academic and history sharing an interview about one of the most famous hackers. For me. That's a huge victory. A guy in history is interested in a hacker. Yeah.
That's the kind of perception and change in mindset that I want to see.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:10:45]
I will just like traditional marketing. We want connections, you know, it's also relevance and like how we connect to different groups.
Deborah Carter:
[00:10:52]
And if you can just reach one person.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:10:55]
Tell me about preparation tech? Cause you've mentioned it a couple of times.
What is preparation thinking and how did it get started?
Deborah Carter:
[00:10:59]
So six years of teaching kids, with New Tech kids, obviously. And of course, I have all these conversations with the kids, with the parents, with schools that we teach in and blah, blah, blah. And what we noticed was this.
The adults are really excited about technology. They know that it's important. It's valuable for their kids. The kids love it. That's great. But the thing is, schools are really slow. They're not putting it in. Parents who also are saying to me, sometimes tech is okay for our boys, but the girls, it's not the girl's thing. So, we're still, people are still not understanding how important technology is and how important it is that all kids have just a foundation to understand it. And so we thought, how can we kind of fill the gap, you know, and to really hammer home the point that every like tech is just in everything. And so, we need to be preparing the kids. And so, we decided that what we’re going to do is we were going to launch preparation tech as an online video platform, but as a storytelling platform.
So, we were going to search out interesting people in all fields and industries and, you know, professions that are doing something that intersects in some way with technology. So, I'm not just talking about computer scientists and programmers and AI experts and data scientists. I'm talking about a nurse who walks around with a tablet and, you know, has to monitor patients, or I'm talking about an accountant that uses spreadsheets or a lawyer, or what have you, because I think then people can see in concrete terms and hear from role models, that my work intersects in this way with technology. The other thing is that preparation tech, if you go to the website, you're going to see a lot of color. Oh, you're going to see a lot of color. It is my personal mission to de-segregate this narrative around technology that says it's just white and Asian guys, that are running the show because it's not.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:13:10]
Yeah cause I noticed that you have categories, right? Men, women, LGBT, non-binary. I think I'm missing one. People of color, obviously. What is the importance for you to actually make that so explicit? Because it can be something that you arrive and you see it and it's a representation.
Like, is it really that people can go to a specific role model?
Deborah Carter:
[00:13:28]
Yes. Because of going back to New Tech Kids. You know, kids of color. We have you know, often will challenge them and say, do you know who this is? And we show a picture. Do you know who that is? And these are all people who are successful in tech.
Nobody knows who they are. And these kids are looking for role models. Research shows that if kids see role models that are doing things that can inspire them to act. Also do these things because it creates a sense of possibility. So that's why we have these categories. I've heard that you're not supposed to have referred to race, like the Europeans have laws about that, but, you know, I guess I will hear from a lawyer if, if that's a problem, but I really think that.
You know, we've had these discussions about, should we just do it about women or should we just do it about people of color? And I'm like, no, we need to show a big mix-match of everything because that's what the reality is. But for people who have a specific interest in a specific category, we're going to try to help you find those role models.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:14:30]
Yeah it’s definitely something in Europe, I mean I identify with this, definitely the movements like Black Lives Matter movement to the past few months. You know, if we were saying, we don't see color, you know, we shouldn't talk about it. Whereas actually, you know, we need to talk about it.
Deborah Carter:
[00:14:41] Oh my God. Yeah. I think in that way, a lot of Europeans can be very naive about it.
And I'm a little disappointed in the level of discussion around race here in the Netherlands. I don't judge people because I just don't think the capacity is there yet.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:15:00]
What us the difference between technology in education or like with the way people talk about it, ipads at schools or technical skills, because you talk about 21st century skills, right?
Can you tell me what is the difference with the way it's being thought that tech education is interpreted now and what you mean?
Deborah Carter:
[00:15:18]
There's something called the technological innovation spectrum, right? And everybody is somewhere on that spectrum. So, you can just be a tech user using your iPad or whatever, but you could also be someone that uses tech to do your work.
Like the Accountant that does a spreadsheet. You can also be a creator that uses tech tools, digital tech tools, like editing tools or whatever, to make things. Or to create things or to produce things. You can be a hardcore technologist that actually invents technology, or you could be someone that commercializes technology, right?
So, these are the product managers. This is management consultants, lawyers, venture capitalists, blah, blah, blah. But everybody's on this tech and I'm talking about digital technology. So, the reason why we teach kids, especially about digital technology and we frame it in terms of creation and invention is because kids need to know that there's a spectrum that they're going to be on, but they have agency. They can determine where there are on that tech spectrum. So, sorry, we're not, I'm not talking about a pencil because that's also technology or a bike I'm talking about digital technology. Right. So, yeah, but you know, we do talk about pencils.
We do talk about the wheel is technology. In fact, we get kids and we say, invent a wheel, a robotic wheel without any wheels. So, we do understand that there's the broader philosophy of tech, but we focus on digital technology.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:16:55]
Yeah. Cause the idea that women or girls aren't into technology is because they've got maybe this idea that it's geeky or it's technical skills.
But when you talk about 21st century skills, I think, you know, everybody has those. That's amazing. Can you tell me more about what are these 21st century skills?
Deborah Carter:
[00:17:11]
Yeah, for sure. So, the first thing is critical thinking. Mindset thinking, being able to analyze, being able to question, being able to apply ethical frameworks.
What's right and what's wrong. What do I personally stand for? What are the consequences of things? Problem-solving big, big, big one. Girls are great with this man. Really great with this, communication, being able to express your ideas, being able to give feedback and to receive it. Teamwork and collaboration.
Oh my gosh. You know what? Gone are the days when there's a lonely programmer sitting in a dark room by himself. No, it's just, technology is really collaborative and you need to master these skills. In some kids it's really, it's painful. Yeah, we’ve had biting, hitting, yelling, meltdowns, these kinds of things and creativity. Creativity is a huge thing.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:18:12]
All of these are not necessarily part of our curriculum or the way that we set up our schools in the Netherlands. Absolutely, because yeah, the, the people have to make their exams on their own in an hour and not be able to look at any of the materials they've studied for it.
That it's not a real-life situation.
Deborah Carter:
[00:18:29]
No, but that's why I believe that we need to start putting formal education in schools, not in a box, but we need to rethink, what we expect from it. Right. Because that's one component of your overall learning. And I think if you don't get that creativity and you don't get those 21st century skills there, then look elsewhere.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:18:51]
Deborah has painted a picture in which we have a future that includes a diverse set of voices, all able to speak up and collaborate on the challenges that lie ahead. So when it comes to education, a United Nations Sustainable Development Goal, how does Deborah see quality education and how is she trying to influence or guide it with her work?
Deborah Carter:
I don't know that we explicitly really follow these UN goals or so, but in terms of quality of education, my perception of quality education has really changed since running New Tech Kids, you know. At first, I was really focused on the formal education system that we just have to bolster that and make it better, and dah, dah, dah
But after six years and seeing how slow things are, I'm starting to think that, you know, maybe we got to take this right out of formal education. So I'm all about quality education, but I just think that. You can obtain it in different ways. And the internet has given us a lot of opportunities and options to get it.
So, yesterday I spoke at a conference, Women in Tech Reggata, and I put together a panel called the many flavors of technology education. Yeah. And school is only one of them. And one of the panelists I interviewed also is just such an inspiring guy, a young black guy from the Bijlmer, which is, you know, Amsterdam's ghetto.
And this guy dropped out of college three times, three times, but he is still a really in demand, successful 3d designer. And he, to me personifies what quality education outside of school could be. The guy from age nine, his dad gave him a computer and like reams of printed out manuals. And he said, Nope.
And he went to YouTube and through grit and perseverance, this guy taught himself 3d programming. His father is a mechanic, his grandfather's a mechanic. So, he dragged that computer and go into their workshops and he would compare the cars that they were working on with the drawings that he was doing. And the guy was just so, so focused.
Now he could never have done this without YouTube tutorials. And who's to say, I think that's quality education. So, what is quality education? Is it and how do we define it? Is it the output that we see? Right? Is it, yeah, it's the journey, but it's also the output and I just don't think that school is for everybody and that it's the end.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:21:27]
We go back to when you were a child, uh, Canada, right? You grew up in Canada, is that correct? Yeah, and I want to ask you, if you go back to that little girl, can you tell me how you saw the planet? What did you see around you? How are you, how did you see the planet as a child?
Deborah Carter:
[00:21:42]
Okay. So, my story is that my parents are from the Caribbean, from an Island called Barbados and they left Barbados after it became independent from the UK and they moved to England.
Because, you know, there was limited opportunities in Barbados. So, they lived for 10 years in England, in Birmingham. And what I hear from my mother was it was a disaster man for black person in the sixties. Ooh. And they got the opportunity to immigrate to Canada because my aunt and uncle were there and they sponsored my parents.
So, they came to Canada, but my parents settled in a very working-class area with a lot of racism and stuff. So something that's really stayed with me is that how hard they had to try and facing adversity and racism and ignorance. And so, my mother, my parents divorced, my mother raised me as a single mom.
My mom was a force of nature, right. A single mom with six kids in a country that's not hers. And she just. She's the one that taught me perseverance and grit. And when nobody else believes in you and when people are trash talking you or whatever, you just rise above it and you keep going. And that mentality, I'm a bit of a fighter.
I have to say. I've always been, I don't think I could be anything else and that, but I also like to take up challenges that seem almost impossible. So New Tech Kids, you know, just out of the blue. Preparation Tech, same thing, I just, I'm not, , I'm not afraid. And I think I just have a different attitude towards risk.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:23:19]
Yeah. Yeah. Cause you have an MBA and a master's in Journalism and now you're in technology and education and you're an entrepreneur. You took that leap in 2014. You were a single mom as well. What was, what is it, what does it take to be the entrepreneur? And is it, was that an easy step?
Because I think it's described as a leap. Yeah. What was it like and what does it take for you? You say, is it risky?
Deborah Carter:
[00:23:48]
Yeah, totally risky. Oh my gosh. And you gotta be a little crazy. I'm sorry to be honest here. I don't know. I think that the thing that's driven me is I just have a passion and a purpose to make people see things, you know, and, maybe I'm, you know, you could question whether I'm right or wrong.
But I feel like this is a journalist in me saying we need to educate people. People need to be aware of that. They just need to know. I need, I have to keep bugging them until they understand this. And that's kinda what keeps you going. So what do you need to be in entrepreneurship? I do think it helps if you have some kind of business background, the MBA really helps me at the time I did it, I was like, Oh, but now everything comes back. I think you also need the ability to persuade people, you know, but also to take the advice, you know, I got a lot of people around me that are constantly giving me advice and stuff, and it's some of it's good, some of is bad, but you know, you just take it and you combine it and you put the two pieces of advice together.
And I think that's also really super important. Another thing that's important to me is that I try to be successful, but I also am showing my son what it is because I say to him, you know what, you're going to a good school. You can do the traditional route, but you know what? You could also start something from scratch.
And I am his first example. And so, he now is to the point that goes, say, mom, you know, I think you should do this. And he's giving me advice on like, okay, all right, go on, go on. But I really tried to expose him to the business side of things. I've taken him on business trips to Dubai. I've taken him to meetings.
I've taken them to my, when I talk in my speeches, because I want to influence him to know that he can forge his own path as well.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:25:48]
I’ve recently started reading these books. They're french and they're called Poilu and it's like this little character and it's basically, he goes off to school every day, but he never arrives at school.
And then he comes back to his mom and then he has this adventure and it's all about the route to schools and the school of life. You know, and it has like all these kinds of these lessons. It's really nice. And it's actually not got any texts. It's just like a graphic novel. So I'll send you that there are lots of them.
But it reminds me, my son only talks to me about things that are unusual at school. Never about the things that he learns on his day to day. I have a couple of questions. Maybe you need to think of it, but is there a quote or a saying, maybe something you mum always said that has stuck with you that you say that's really inspired me or like, you know, I hear myself saying a lot.
Deborah Carter:
[00:26:35] You know, I love to listen to music.
And one of the songs that I'm loving, I wake up now and I listened to this song. It’s Lizzo, and she says hair toss check my nails, and then how you feeling? Feeling good. And so, if you watch the video, she's about women who just feel bad about themselves and everything else. And everybody's saying they're being rejected and stuff, and she's like, shake it, shake it off, man.
Get up, slick your hair, check your nails, feeling good. Don't worry about what everybody thinks and just keep going. And so yeah, I don't know if it’s a quote, it's just these. Yeah, exactly. Lizzo is a big girl and she would be considered obese. But when I tell you she is a hero and her music always, packs a punch in terms of messages of empowerment.
So here she is at the top of her game at the top of the music chart, she's a fat black woman. Like what else does that say.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:27:38]
Who has been kindest to you? If you think about people along your path.
Deborah Carter:
[00:27:43]
Wow. That's a really good question. I'm would take some of these questions who have been coming this to me. Oh, good.
Oh gosh. You know what? I got a squad of female friends around me that have my back, that I can call at three o'clock in the morning. Yeah. So I would say that, Oh my gosh. Who are they? One of my oldest friend is Jane in Canada. Just a wonderful woman, completely different than me. There's Diane, who's an American who's living in Spain. I can call her and I often call her and say, Oh, Diane, I don't know about this. Should I keep going? And she'll say, girl, check my nails, keep going. You know, I got kitty. Kitty has been like a standu friend. Oh my gosh. The Dutch can be so loyal and so supportive. And you know, she is the voice of reason.
I've got Tammy in Virginia, who is like you keep going because you feel strongly about this and dah, dah, dah, dah. Yeah. Yeah. And my mom, my mom, 82 years old in Canada, man. And when I think my life is tough, I think about her. Six kids alone in a country that's not yours. And she continued. And yeah, so kindness. I think the kindest person has been my mom. She's also, she's also been in some ways, the meanest at times, but she, when, I'm very lucky because I am loved. I have a mother who loves me very much
Tessa Wernink:
[00:29:21]
For the last part of the interview, Deborah and I talk about the present with a business that relies so heavily on physical proximity.
I wonder how she has responded to life, in Corona times. I asked her how she has dealt with this and what the continuing uncertainty means for her business.
Deborah Carter:
[00:29:40]
So, we were busy teaching lots and lots and lots of programs. And then all of a sudden in March, everything shuts down. We teach in person. We teach critical thinking skills, where the kids are working in teams and stuff, everything stopped.
It was just shocking. And people said, Oh, just go online with your programs. It's not that easy because we are so focused on kids being together and working together and learning from each other. So at the end of the day, we tried and it was like, nah, we're just going to have to wait it out. But this was when Preparation Tech was born.
This is when I had time to say, Oh my gosh, you know what? It's all nice that we're doing this. But if we don't create the foundation for these kinds of programs, and if we don't start changing the mindset of adults, then there's a disconnect. And that's when Preparation Tech was born telling the story, showing people that tech is everywhere.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:30:33]
I think the most, the common thing that people have done is like, how can I digitalize everything? And you're in technology and digital technology and you just took a step back and thought, that's not what I'm going to do. So that entrepreneur and you pivoted to like, okay, there's another problem that I've identified by not after working for six years in this field, how can I address that?
So that's how you started and I'd love to hear more about what you've learned. Like what have you learned?
Deborah Carter:
[00:30:58]
So far I’ve interviewed about, I think it was 25 different people and a couple of patterns and a couple of observations have emerged. The first thing is that the most innovative people who are solving really big challenges, tend to be interested in multiple areas.
They tend to be multidisciplinary and even more so not the hardcore technologists necessarily, but they have veered from loving and studying art to studying tech, to studying science and then a bit of philosophy. And so, they're interested in all these things and then they can wrap these things and pull them all together to create really cool things.
So, I'll give you one example. I interviewed David Hanson, who is probably the world's leading inventor of human like robots. David was a kid. He told me from childhood that you couldn't pin him down in one area. Right. So, he was in high school and he was doing art and sculpture, and then he was doing programming and robotics, but he was also like in a band and dah, dah, dah.
And he was one of the few kids that love philosophy. And so, when he went to university. Again, he didn't want to be, he started off in, I think, science or engineering, and then he said, no, I want to go to art school. So, he went to the Rhode Island School of Design, but he, he still took courses at a university in computer science.
Like you couldn't box this guy. And he started his career at Disney as a sculpture, a sculptor, sorry. And he was building these huge, you know, at a Metronics like these big moving kind of dinosaurs and stuff like this, but he still loved tech and there was this new AI unit. And so he kind of started hanging out with those guys. And so just being able to go between these worlds, he was able to create these human like robots, that one of them sang a duet with Jimmy Fallon on the Tonight Show. Right? I mean, the guy's just out there, I guess some of the lessons are. Help kids know who they are.
Like we know kids know who they are, they know what they're interested in. They know what they like. They know what they could do for hours on end. And so, our role as adults is really to help them to take that. Match it with a bit of technology and see where it goes. So, a lot of preconceptions that people have about technology and about, people working in tech, have to change.
So, for example, my latest interviews with Pablos Holman, who was one of the top American hackers and you know, of course he started hacking, but he's used his hacking skills and his hacking mindset to work with people like Jeff Besos. To launch rockets into space and also, with Nathan Myhrvold on eradicating malaria with lasers being able to zap mosquitoes.
So, a lot of people think hackers are bad, they’re just criminals, and some of them are, but not all of them are. So again, the mindset of let's be open. Let's have a more nuanced view of tech because. Yeah, he's saying this, this hacker is saying that we need to teach kids a hacker's mindset, right? That's a good thing for all kids to have, right?
This curiosity and this desire to not just consume things, but to open them up and understand and manipulate them and, and build new things.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:34:38]
And failure. I was reading about Elon Musk's rocket that went into space and then exploded upon landing. And I think his tweet was, “Fantastic! Mars, here we come”
Because he said we learned everything we need to know. It might have exploded.
Deborah Carter:
The big thing with failure is that we can't like we have to normalize it. Right. And that's why tech education we're constantly building failure into our programs so that people get used to it. They almost develop armor against it.
Yeah. Well, let's try again. And the girls, they have a hard time with this. They really struggle with this.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:35:10]
Why more so embarrassment?
Deborah Carter:
[00:35:13]
Or either perfectionist and also there, they tend to do better at school. Right. So, I mean, you go into a program where you're like, you're an A student, like every robot you build doesn't work.
I mean, that's a, you know, what do you call it? Humble pie, right? Yeah.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:35:27]
I don't remember this one thing was, cause I have three boys, but somebody said, girls, you know, they get a present or whatever. They look at it. They work it the way that it should work. And then like they, they play with it the way that you're supposed to play with it while a boy will take it and go, oh, hey, you can do this, but can it also do this?
And like throw it across the room or like, see how far it can go. I don't know if that's inbuilt into children or whether that's cultural.
Deborah Carter:
[00:35:49]
The thing with girls is, I mean, don't give up on them because, uh, so what we've done is, uh, in our courses, we change them over time because we see the mindset of girls and stuff.
And so, we come in heavy, we start our courses heavy with the critical thinking these discussions because girls tend to be engaged. Right. And they see a challenge, they want to solve the problem. So, ready mindset. We open up the mindset, right. And then, we give them challenges. That actually mean something, not like build a robot that goes from here to there, but like, okay, we have a farming crisis.
We can't get enough workers. Build a robot to automate, to create, to be able to grow more strawberries or whatever. And they're like, okay, we get it right. This means something. And they tend to come into our programs with less experience in building and making stuff. Right. They didn't play with Lego and stuff like this.
So, we actually have embedded a lot of basic intro to building lessons. And I tell you, after these girls have a few of those. And we start to challenge. They are creating prototypes that are better than the boys. Better, better thinking better. Maybe they stick to it. You ask them to do something and they'll do something.
The boys are like, okay, we'll do a farm robot. But you know, when he's going to have all these spears and he's going to be throwing balls and like everything. Yeah. Which is cool. Right. You need both. Exactly.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:37:14]
I want to talk with you about ethics cause I've also been obviously working in the field of technology, hardware and software more recently in data ethics.
And in fact was asked recently to help with a Dutch version of a UK design code, which is called the age appropriate design code, which has just launched in the UK, and one of the things they say is like, for all the benefits that digital economy can offer children, we are currently not creating a safe space for them to learn, play, and explore.
And not, we've not, we shouldn't protect them from technology, but within this space of technology, because there's not clear values, base actually in the designing of technology these days. Right. Can you tell me what is like, how do you work with ethics? How do you teach it? What role does it play?
Deborah Carter:
[00:38:05]
So, we think it's really important. Even more so, even more so now that, you know, there's so much discussion about privacy violations and data and stuff like that. So, we have chosen to actually embed teaching kids, formal ethical framework as part of our technology education courses. So, we focus on introducing kids to three kind of formal ethical frameworks.
The first is consequentialism. What are the consequences of technology? The second is that rules based. What's right? What's wrong? And the third one is more about character. What do I stand for? What are my personal values kind of thing? And so, what we do is we give, like, usually in each of our classes, we give a scenario, we talk about technology that's out there today.
Like, I'll give you a specific example. We had a class where we were talking about privacy, so we gave them the scenario that your school has decided to put cameras in every classroom to monitor the kids and please apply consequentialism that the way you make decisions based on consequences. And it was really interesting.
Cause you know, some people said, Oh, that's too advanced for kids. They don't think like that. So, we just ask them, this is the scenario. What would you do now? We did rules based. So, if the school decides anyway, they're going to do that. What rules would you put in place? And you know, one little girl said no cameras in the bathroom.
Very good. Right. Another said you have to blur the faces of the kids. And another person said, no, you can't put the cameras on during recess because that's a time when it's our free time. And another person said the rule is that the teacher always has to be nice cause she's on camera. Right. So, kids think about these things.
So even if it's basic, if you just keep giving them the practice of how to evaluate technology, And, you do it early. I think that will create a digital citizenry that is so different than what we have now, where, you know, Facebook is up on the stand and people don't even know what questions to ask.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:40:16]
Exactly. And because it's that kind of thinking that technology is not neutral. And I think kids are growing up with that, but adults, on the other hand, they experienced technology. Oh, it's probably kind of a robot or a technical solution that will be neutral. You know, that they don't see the ethics or values are programmed
Deborah Carter:
[00:40:34]
I think a lot of kids, I mean, from the class discussions we have, the kids are, they know they have serious thoughts and opinions about technology and automation. And it's really funny because, I mean, especially like we teach kids in international schools, which are English and expat like foreigners not Dutch.
And then we also teach in Dutch primary schools. And I have to say the quality of the discussions we have in the Dutch classrooms is pretty high. These kids are on it. They understand technology. They're forming their opinions about technology and they're not like all technology is great. They actually have some real strong opinions about automation and what's needed and what's not.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:41:22]
I really liked to kind of make it that people can connect with what, you know, what can I do, right. So, who needs to see your enterprise or what is something that someone can do right now? You know, to work toward that mindset or that mission, or yeah.
Deborah Carter:
[00:41:36]
I'd like to challenge everybody to sit down with the kid and it doesn't have to be parents, right?
Because it takes a village to raise kids, sit down and ask them what they're really interested in, what motivates them, what's their passion, and then make it your business to find, to go out and research somebody who's doing, using technology to do something cool related to that, just to inspire them.
It's just as simple as that you got the internet at your fingers. Like a friend of mine said, Oh, you know, my daughter is in first year university and she doesn't know what she's interested in, but recently she's taken this interest in cybersecurity. So, guess what, I'm going to make it, my business to go out and find somebody to interview a black woman that looks like her so that she has that role model.
And she, we opened her eyes about what is possible with cybersecurity. I mean, it's a really a technical thing, but my challenge will be to find someone who's doing something a bit weird, right?
Tessa Wernink:
[00:42:31]
This is a great challenge and it doesn't even need to be your kid, right. It could be any kid just to have like empathetic listening skills.
Deborah Carter:
[00:42:38]
That that spark of interest, you know?
Tessa Wernink:
[00:42:42]
So my previous guest had a question and I'll introduce it. She said, what do you think the future will look like post COVID. And with especially with respect to the interface between humans. And the urban environment. She says, we see gradual change happening in our living spaces, in our cities, our natural environments.
How do you see things might change in that respect post COVID?
Deborah Carter:
[00:43:09]
Well it relates back to technology. I think people will have a new appreciation for connection, human connection, and I really hope that. There's less technology. I really hope that I see people walking together and doing things that have nothing to do with tech.
Maybe you use tech to set up a meeting, but you want connection. You want connection. And there's only, you know, technology has this limits. Of course, it can facilitate and stuff. But at the end of the day, we are humans and we thrive on human connection. And I really think this has woken us up because it's been taken away from us.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:43:46]
Yeah, there is a question as an entrepreneur or as a female entrepreneur, or just any question that you've been thinking about?
Deborah Carter:
[00:43:52]
How can business people make it a habit to interact with people who are polar opposite different than them in terms of race, color, sex, sexual orientation, thought, politics. How can we make this a habit to really be able to transform business?
Tessa Wernink:
[00:44:15]
Thank you Deborah for coming in today.
Deborah Carter:
[00:44:18]
Tessa, thank you so much. My gosh, usually I'm on the other side and I'm interviewing. You asked some hardball questions, man. I'm going to, I'm going to borrow some of these questions. Thank you very much. Great experience.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:44:29]
It's wonderful. It's so nice to hear what you're doing.
And I'm so inspired, especially because I've got children. I wish you all the best.
This episode is just one of many interviews recorded for this podcast series. Go to WhatIfWeGetItRight.com to hear more stories from people around the world who are putting the health of the planet at the center of their business.
If you're ready to move forward, your own idea, you can download a planet centric design toolkit at impossible.com.