Episode 15: Carrie Chan - There are plenty more fish in the lab
Carrie Chan:
[00:00:00]
Any kind of food that is being lucky to be picked by the Chinese consumers as something that they like to have is going to be extinct in a fairly short period of time.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:00:19]
What if we get it right. Welcome to episode 15 of what if we get it right. I'm Tessa Wernink, a social entrepreneur, and I've teamed up with Impossible, home of planet centric design together. We bring you stories about how to build businesses that can move the world in a new direction.
Today. I speak to Carrie Chan co-founder and CEO of Avant Meats.
Carrie is a Hong Kong based entrepreneur who inhabits an unconventional space in sustainable business. She's looking pragmatically at a way to reduce harm to animals while still feeding the global population. Her answer is cultivated fish grown in a lab in the words of her company to gratify, without sacrifice.
Carrie Chan:
[00:01:01]
Avant Meats mission is to offer an alternative to everyone, including consumers and company, an alternative way to produce animal proteins.
And in this case, it is talking about fish, that we do not need to, raise or catch and slaughter fish in a way that we can achieve sustainability, having the ocean to replenish, more foster production of the food that can distribute and can cater for demand in more, more efficient manner. And so this is what we do.
We are a bio-tech company and this is what we are. We are booting at a moment as a technology platform for this cultivated meat technology.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:01:44]
My curiosity overcame my initial dismay of the idea of eating lab grown food. And I decided I wanted to understand more about this approach and whether it can be a game changer.
So before asking Carrie more about her future vision and purpose, I took the first part of the interview to better understand her business. Carrie has reeled in millions in seed funding. But hasn't yet brought a product to market.
Her business idea is at the forefront of the food industry. Even lawmakers haven't caught up or decided whether or not to allow it.
So let's hear more first about how Carrie sees the problem and the context in which she has devised a possible answer to a global problem.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:02:29]
Hello, Carrie. It's so nice to speak to you all the way in Hong Kong. I have a thing with Hong Kong, which I talked to you about. I was born there, and today we'll be talking about you and also your enterprise Avant Meats.
Can you start by telling our listeners, what is Avant Meats? What do you do?
Carrie Chan:
[00:02:51]
So for me, we started in late 2018. We are the very first cultivated meat technology company of China. We're actually the first one who worked on also producing fish using this method. So that means that we, what we do is actually,produce fish, meat, and fish protein, but without going back to catching or raising and slaughtering fish.
And so using the cell technology tissue engineering technology, bioprocesses basically with this, we can actually produce the same fish we want without needing to catching more fish or raising more fish. So in order to achieve a more sustainable options for consumers and yeah, this is what we do.
We have been making several product prototype, including fish filet. We also completed a fish maw. For the audience. That means the swim bladder fish, and it is actually a delicacy or a very exotic ingredient in this part of the world.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:03:51]
Just to give some context to the listeners, we're talking fish, we're saying China, I read somewhere that, on average Chinese people or like the total population of China, eats double the average in fish.
Can you tell me a little bit about, like what fish means in China where you work?
Carrie Chan:
[00:04:10]
So, yeah in China we eat like 35% global produce or fish and seafood. That means that it is having more of the equal share. So the population is around 28% of the population in China versus the population globally.
But now the fish consumption is 35%. That means that we actually eating more of our shares and we eat a lot of different kinds of in particular, southern part of China, we basically have a few provinces where the staple is actually fish, especially the cities around the coastal area. It is basically in our diet, traditionally day in and day out.
So that's the reason why it is actually one of the very highly consumed animal protein as well in this part of the world.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:05:02]
Yeah. And why would you go for cell-based fish? What's the problem with normal fish or sustainably farmed fish?
Carrie Chan:
[00:05:09]
Well, I would say that we would like to offer an alternative. At the moment, maybe some of our audience knows that all of our fish, not all of them are actually farmed.
So among the more commonly eaten animal proteins, fish is still the type of any animal species, that we rely, half of them, caught from the ocean. Although half of them are farmed.
The reason being a lot of species cannot be domesticated. So either they do not grow well in captivity or they just do not breed and like populate.
So in particular some species where, which is really sought after has led to the overfishing and actually several fish species already in danger. For example, the first product we have, developed a prototype for fish maw. Traditionally it is obtained from Bahaba. If people look up Bahaba online, the first thing that will actually come as a result in the internet searches that these species already in danger, and we cannot find them anymore because of a certain pattern of what we eat.
So it's over-fishing drastically. That's not, they're not, they cannot be naturally replenished anymore, so they're protected. So that is a reason why we think that these technology can also achieve several, solve several problems – Overfishing, Marine conservation.
And of course, using this technology, we also compare the economic benefit of using these new methods to produce animal protein. In the case of fish, depending on the species, the time we need to grow from a fry, to a filet or the fish size that we can actually go to the market is roughly between about like nine months to about a year, to two years.
And using this method, we can actually produce the same amount of fish in about two months’ time. So it will drastically accelerated protein production for the world. As we know that, the world population is exploding and people have been funding many different ways. To accelerate the production of the food product in this case, fish protein.
So I think that would definitely help with that as well. And as well as using less natural resources, the centralization of the supply chain, a lot of fish in particular, people need to be close to the water in order to enjoy it, the seafood. And some countries where they have the means and the financial resources, they would just fly around different in that create a lot of carbon footprint, impact on the environment as well.
So in the future, we can actually produce meats in the region or in the market where they need it. So we decentralize the whole supply chain, can also achieve a cutdown in the carbon footprint in that regard.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:07:58]
There's a finite number of fish let's say, or it replenishes itself, but there's just a problem with the fish stock in the world.
And one of the ways in which people are started to approach it is by doing sustainable farming and actually a step further is what you're saying is through cell based technology.
So growing fish in a lab, and what I understand is that at the moment your business is in the process of like prototyping.
Can you tell me what is the process of growing fish in a lab?
Carrie Chan:
[00:08:29]
So it is fairly similar to let's say hydroponic. So in that case, we pick a part of the plant that can grow in an environment where it is a bit more controlled. That means that we do not grow the plant in the outdoor industry, with the soil and everything. We just basically supply with the plant with the natural nutrients, the right temperature, the right light level intensity, et cetera. And then in time in the sense that we do not need to use pesticides, we can also manage to harvest in the most stable supply.
So very similar concept is that we pluck, we caught a biopsy, a very small part of the fish or the animal in this case, it could be chicken, it could be beef, cow, et cetera. And then we get that biopsy and actually turn it into a we'll call the cell line, which is a healthy generation, a healthy population of the cell regenerating kind of cells.
And then that becomes the seed. And then when we need to produce more meats, we just always go back to the seed and then put them into a very warm, like a controlled equipment.
We call that bioreactor or fermenter, it's actually no different from similar mechanism as an incubator, or where we make the fermenter that we make the yogurt or where we make beer.
So just basically keep the temperature right. Keep it pH level right. And feed the cell with the nutrients it wants. And then after about two months’ time, we will yield the cells that is the same cell as we find on the piece of fish. So that will basically the same, the muscle cell as we eat on fish.
And then that will form the base of the product that we make. Then it can be turned into like a filet of fish cake or other different forms, as we wish.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:10:21]
That means that when you take a biopsy that the animal doesn't die, but it also means that the product you make is not vegan.
Carrie Chan:
[00:10:28]
Correct. So in a very strict definition, it does contain the animal parts. So for people who would like to skip animal parts all together, they will not be vegetarian, but I understand that vegetarianism and veganism to a certain extent, do not want to exploit animal for food and entertainment, clothing, et cetera.
So it might fit into the rules and the standard of some people. In fact, in this field, there are quite a lot of supporters, supporting this method because that it is basically taking away the animal killings, sustainability and everything like I myself, I adopt a vegan diet, but, I would happily, like, I happily consume the product that we made.
I actually tasted it when we make the prototype, because I know that it is sustainable as well and studying the process. I understand what goes into that, that I feel safe that I can eat it.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:11:25]
Yeah. And you know, if that's the case in terms of this being such a great new technology. Is it you're still waiting for regulatory approval, I think.
And also raising awareness around consumers. Can you tell me what people are afraid of?
Carrie Chan:
[00:11:42]
Yeah. So I think a lot of the information or lack of information always lead to a question marks as well as uncertainty and then lead to fear. We have come across a couple of occasions whereby people within that, oh, it must be involving animal clonings. It must be involving genetic modification, et cetera, or it must involve some like toxic chemicals in the process. So maybe take this opportunity to explain a little bit is, first of all, because we only produce a cell, so it's actually no different from regenerative medicine whereby the same process actually apply to a patient who have a part of skin burnt and that the patients can actually have part of this like skin tissue, actually grown outside of that person’s body, and implement that.
In that process of course we are not creating another sentience like beings that we need to skew at the end. So we just replicating that part of the tissue. So it's not cloning, for gene GM, in where we operate, China market is very strict in terms of not accepting GM food for human consumption. So we take it as a policy that we do not result to doing GM for our food product.
And so I think that's for sure, although we understand that in this field where some other jurisdiction, GM food is allowed, indeed GM could be one of the approach to make the productivity better, et cetera. So that will be something that, you know, a consumer can actually check out on the product.
And then the thought is that I think people would not know what we feed to the cell. So the cell actually, like us, just like human being, just like a pig, a cow, it just need nutrients, like, glucose, amino acids, vitamins minerals, et cetera. And of course, some of the operations might require some, we called that simple chemicals. But then I think that after all the process that is already clean and turn into, some of those chemicals maybe go into the, making this out to do a little bit kind of action, but they eventually, it would not, there will be like rules and measurement and data in place that there will not be seizures. Chemical product is not normal in a food product.
So in, in our case, I know what is going into it. And I happily eat the prototype that we produce. So I think that that might also hope to deliver some level of confidence to people who are new to this area. We are definitely transparent on what we do. And then I hope that we'll also ultimately let people know about the, the benefit of this solution as well.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:14:39]
I did quite a bit of research into this topic, but it wasn't until I read about the first regulatory approval for lab grown meat in Singapore, that I fully understood that there is as yet no existing market for her product. Her business still hinges on her ability to imagine a future in which her product will be sold.
What does it take to do this and inspire people to join you? I took the opportunity to explore that future and understand what motivates Carrie to pursue it with such energy.
Carrie Chan:
[00:15:09]
I would see that in the future, a lot of the places in around the world could have access to different fish that is not like, they do not need to be locally caught and actually flown around. It would be decentralized, I mean the whole decentralization of the supply chain.
In the future, we do see that we do not need to fly this fish around anymore. And, then we can actually produce them on demand basically. This is what I see. We see a lot of partners in different parts of the world, primarily Asia to begin with that we'll have, we are developing a technology platform whereby we can provide a total solution or turnkey solution to operators/partners/investors in different parts of the world to actually run the similar operation. It's just like, let's say Tessa, you would like to set up a plan in Vancouver, then what we can offer is that we bring in the the cell line, the machine and also everything you need to start churning out a lot of fish for the local market. And so that is the idea we have in mind in actually not too long, maybe three, four years’ time.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:16:28]
The future is also, um, the people around the world can still eat the kinds of fish that they like without the traveling around. And I imagine also the fish in the sea will replenish. Do you think that there will be less fishing?
Carrie Chan:
[00:16:44]
Yes correct, we, we hope to see that the ocean is replenished in a much closer to back to natural. As you see without COVID now a lot of natural animals are actually back to the normal, and just enjoying the space without human, like interference, et cetera.
So we hope that that will be similar in that case for the oceans.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:17:09]
I often ask my guests, like if you saw yourself on a spectrum of like startup to scale up to a more established business, where would you see yourself? And I read that you closed also seed funding in December, and raised like more than 3.1 million and still you're in prototyping phase.
Can you tell me a little bit about how that works with such a well, I guess capital intensive business?
Carrie Chan:
[00:17:33]
Yeah, indeed. That is a little bit different from some other industry. And then, this is definitely quite capital intensive. We have completed prototype. I think the next is actually getting a plant, whereby we run a bio reactor.
It is where the exact, large amount of the cell and proteins actually churning out from that machine. And so that's going to take place in 2021. We’re implementing our plans for that. So, and then of course there will be when we scale up further, there will be a bit more fundraising, but then that will be really bringing us to the actual revenue and larger scale commercialization.
And then I think that will be the point whereby we can actually, , have like revenue and hopefully some profit and a return back to the company to do further R&D and further development.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:18:28]
There's quite a few businesses in this area and also in cell-based technology.
Can you tell me what is uniquely yours? When you say, when we come into this market, Avant Meats.
Carrie Chan:
[00:18:40]
There are several company in the U S are working on fish, seafood. There are also company in Asia, in Singapore working on, crustacean et cetera. So what we are differentiating from the other company is that I think there are several things in particular for the approach to market, the go-to market plan.
And also we see that food is a very culturally related kind of, consumer behavior and decision making. So we are native to this region, so we know, that the taste profile and interest in what kind of products. We know that in our R&D. We do have our own patent pending solutions after understanding what our peers have been working. We do reckon that there are several opportunities in terms of gaps that technologically wise is not explored yet. In another way, we talk about when we listened to what our peers are saying. Look, I'm talking about as a solution to charge a cost down.
I think this are the major differentiating factor. And I think at the moment we are the first one working on fish. And so we offer a particularly wild type species that we would like to also try to help with the overfishing problem as well.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:20:05]
The framework for this podcast was really to look from the sustainable development goals.
Do the sustainable development goals play a role for you as a business? And if so, how, or is it, and which ones?
Carrie Chan:
[00:20:18]
Yeah, definitely, I think the beginning, the objective of setting up the company is definitely, is already in line with a lot of the idea. , I think that there are multiple things, including, you know, life under water, which I think we directly tried to solve that, overfishing kind of problem. The other is that when we talk about the poverty and hunger, I think a lot of the time of course there are multiple problems that leads to that hunger and why we have still a large number of the people in this world not having enough food.
And so of course there's multiple problem, including distribution problem, use of resources, even, you know, corruption and everything. And I think one of the thing using this method, including us, not just us, but using this cell based technology. I think one would actually help with that. Previously we need to feed like a hundred unit of the energy, like food energy in terms of animal feed to an animal.
And then for cow, the energy conversion is only about 9% or 10%. And chicken and pork a little bit higher, but none of them actually go above like 15 or 20%. So a lot of the resources that is in the food system, in the animal feed, et cetera, actually end up nowhere. It ended up in the, you know, other paths like waste and others. I actually use in the animal as they go about and spending the energy into you know, keeping themselves warm and running around and everything.
And so this very inefficient, and I think when we get the system more efficient, that will speed up quite a bit of this resources that now at the moment, primarily go to feeding the animal, but we will have those resources back. And then that could be distributed to the population in a much better way.
So I think that would also help with the hunger, that kind of parameter as well. And of course us responsible consumption and production. Like what I said, we can actually manage the production more in line with the market demands. So we will not overproduce because now a lot of consumerism, capitalism driven consumerism is that we produce more than the market needs.
I think when we can manage the supply, to meet with the demand better. We can also solve with that more like responsible consumption and production kind of cycle there as well.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:22:50]
With cell-based fish, Carrie is putting a new product to market with a business that has the global goals as an innovation framework.
This is a good example of planet centric thinking, but I imagine that saving the fish in the sea, while still catering to consumption on our planet will throw up dilemmas on the path ahead.
Carrie is well aware of the complexity of her endeavor. And I look forward to staying in touch and understanding how not only her product, but her business will manage to be game changing.
The next part of the interview will focus on her past. And I start out by asking one of my favorite questions. How did you see the planet as a child?
Carrie Chan:
[00:23:29]
Yeah, I grew up in a pretty much, people use the term concrete jungle, which is the name that people give to Hong Kong. I didn't have a lot of exposure to the natural environment per se, but we do have pretty good percentage of the land in Hong Kong, which has countryside.
So I do enjoy quite a bit of the natural environment. And then, when I grew up, I actually very curious about the space like outer space. One of my earlier kind of dream was actually to become an astronaut. And of course my science and pure medicine, the other is not big enough to be doing that.
But on the other hand, I turn out to be pretty good in trying to designing something and then make it like happened in implement that, seeing how it converts from an idea into something tangible and physical. So that's how I, that's what I, actually find that the planet and also everything like the universe is very mysterious and attractive to me. And then, yeah, and I was just that was what I see. And then now I'm happy that what I'm doing now is actually helping with part of the problem with the planet wellbeing, et cetera.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:24:51]
Just a little bit of background you're now in a, this business of like, finding sustainable alternatives for meat products.
But before this, I saw a long list of like a project development and real estates. Can you, so how is that helping you now? Or why did you go from that to this?
Carrie Chan:
[00:25:11]
Right. Yeah. So I'm trained as an architect. So architect is actually good in dreaming of something and try to make it in real life, tangible that you can see, touch and feel.
So I think that a lot of the transferable skill from where I trained and work, have been working, managing financial resources managing investment opportunity, managing the, putting a team together and also managing the budget, the time, et cetera, When, how it turned into something that could deliver like a house or a hotel that could be operated eventually.
So that is very relevant. I find that more and more. I find it definitely more relevant and it's more. It's also about masterminding, the whole thing as well. The whole project and how to see the future and how to see it happening in front of my eyes maybe.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:26:01]
Nice masterminding because you have a co-founder called Mario Chin, who is a Research and Bio-Engineer. How did you meet, how did this come together, this whole project?
Carrie Chan:
[00:26:10]
Oh, yeah, this is actually a story. Sometimes people find it is actually quite, quite interesting. I find it very gratefully. So my journey to start with this venture started, I started on, myself not having the co-founder and when I left my full-time job and then I spent some time wondering about it in different cities of China, Guangzhou, Beijing, Schengen, Wuhan, Shanghai, et cetera. So try to find a location like a laboratory and a co-founder at the same time.
Of course I use other channels of with like co-investor, sorry, co-founder and then to my surprise, I actually put it like, an advertisement for employment because, as we know scientists do not hang out in bars and you know, those kind of societal things. So I don't need to go out to look for them. And I'm pleasantly surprised by the quality and the quantity of very serious and experienced scientists who express interests , to my call for a chief scientist at that time. And then a very rigorous process with the help with our scientific advisor, that’s how Mario has been identified as a very suitable and competent person to actually lead the R&D team.
And then that was the beginning. That was the end of 2018.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:27:31]
I have a question. I usually ask people who has been kindest to you, but I think I wanted to change it slightly and ask you whether you think, whether kindness, has a role to play in business, especially in Asia.
Carrie Chan:
[00:27:44]
I think generally around the world, people doing business also kind, but I think the business relationship in Asia, maybe a little bit different. A lot of time, people look for not as, not that much as like, very phrased, strictly transactional, but people try to thank everyone collectively as an industry or as an ecosystem or as everything that we can help out each other. So I think that kindness, that to a certain extent it's not, it's maybe even clashing with capitalism, you know, because for one deal I would like to maximize my profit. But then, but then I think in, in general, doing business in this part of the world, people do think that there are more thing to just getting that extra profit and extra thing.
Even for the, if we can understand that even for the business philosophy, we can actually handle that, we would also see that for our choosing a certain strategy and tactic to do a business. We know that, of course the term that what goes around, comes around. So we pay attention to, you know, do not try to extract the, maximize the profit and everything in one location, but we watch out for the time.
Okay. We now know, because we now know that if we dump too much, you know, waste into the, to the environment, it will come back. We will actually end up in like plastic can end up in our food and that sort of thing. I think people now, generally are aware of that, but, I think this kind of mindset has been in the, a lot in the Chinese or Asian tradition for many, many years.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:29:27]
For the last part of the interview, I asked Carrie to explain to me how she is setting up a sustainable business in Asia. What does it take to push forward a sustainability agenda? And who does she need to build a market and convince people that this is getting it right?
Carrie Chan:
[00:29:45]
Yeah. So we actually need to have a, find a very good marketing. Sales and marketing people because our very first B2B product, that could, that is an ingredient. We need to, we actually go into a soft launch very soon, and then we do need to start conducting a lot of conversation with potential customers. So they need a very focused resources to doing that.
And the other, as we go up to the pilot scale, we asked, you rightly mentioned that for the compliance, we, you start to do the application and the data together. And then, the other is that the whole operation would need to come into the place. So we need to have people in the operation side managing, the cost material, where they come from and how do they go, QA, QC, et cetera.
So at least there are a few headcounts around those tasks and we actually recruit both regionally and internationally. We do have, talents from overseas, from Europe, joining us.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:30:52]
Can you say something about these people? Do they have a certain mindset or a way of working? Are they attracted by the mission of the company or the technology?
Carrie Chan:
[00:31:02]
Yeah, that's actually very good point. I find a very pleasant kind of nice observation is that I think that might also echo with some other company in this space is that we do have people who volunteer and send us their CV. And then I think they like that it is an offering a sustainable solution to the environment, to the planet.
And we do actually have, as an intern. They're actually one more people joining us who actually, very senior researcher, also find out about this new industry. They're interested, they also have very relevant experience related to the species they're working on. So, we actually got the CV from that person and then when we were not looking, and then when we need to add more head counts, we actually go through them.
And, it's actually very good because I also spoke with scientists. Some of them would have slightly different view in the perspective of a certain policy or principle in the R&D. So I think having people to understand that the value is actually very important that who people already buy into the value is definitely important as a team member as well.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:32:24]
Yeah it is interesting. Cause you say scientists, and they want to innovate and research. Is there a question of ethics in your company? Like the role of ethics?
Carrie Chan:
[00:32:35]
I think that is not, that is my general. I did spend a lot of time at the beginning and even now to speak with different, very senior researchers, professors, et cetera, in, in the biotech space.
And I think they do hold different kinds of opinion in terms of, for example, achieving certain breakthrough, you know, cannot be having too much in restriction and limitation that might tread into light, ethical standard, et cetera. So I think, and of course people are entitled to their own opinion and their principal, but I think for people who do not see it from the perspective of sustainability, ethical treatment of animals. I think we would be challenging down the line because then, they will always urge to solve the problem using some method, which would not align with what we would like to do.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:33:32]
One of the things that I say to a lot of social entrepreneurs that I work with is that we're, if we're stuck in this kind of capitalist mindset that we're competing in the market, but, in many ways, if we look at our mission, we’re collaborating, do you?
And I found from that perspective, there's a lot of people or like businesses in this field. Do you see it as competitors or collaborators? How do you work together to achieve a mission?
Carrie Chan:
[00:33:59]
I think maybe for some industry and including us, people are very supportive and friendly with each other.
For example, among startup founders especially, those of us in, Asia, in this region, we have, you know, we have, personal contact. We have chatted with each other, not very regularly, but at least once in a while. And then, even for company in the, in other places like in other continents, depending on location, we do have, you know, direct conversation and, communication with them.
And, one of the things that is coming to us, it's actually getting the market to understand the whole technology and then they. Market education is our common frontier. And, and I think we also have been each other, some, some collaboration as well.
So for example, we will have our partners that are working on developing part of the solution. And then, that will be, we cannot do it alone. And so partnership is actually very important. It also help everyone to accelerate the process, you know, much, much quicker.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:35:14]
I did read about SHIOK Meats in Sweden and HOOK a Swedish company and fish, that, that everybody's taking different strategies as well.
Right? So I like this idea that you're on a frontier, in terms of acceptance that you can learn, which one works. I think we haven't talked about successes. What is your, like, what is the moment that you started making an impact and that you thought this is success?
Carrie Chan:
[00:35:38]
Ah I actually think that, I was very surprised that when I call for the, for the chief scientists or the co-founder, I actually receive very good background and experience researcher on.
So into the call, I actually, to my, to my pleasant surprise, and I actually would call that a very early success for me and the company as a whole, we have. Investor supporting us, even at a beginning where we have nothing, we don't have the poetry, we haven't done much thing, but then, um, we have the support of the investor.
And then I think the next for us will be. Our customer, client corporate clients, as well as consumers that would like to like try our products.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:36:30]
Yeah. And then you have both the benefits of being local in the Chinese markets. But also, you know, how difficult it is probably to change the minds.
Going from like, I love that you said at some point, you know, if you are a certain species of fish that is on the delicacies menu, then you have the luck of probably being extinct.
Carrie Chan:
[00:36:54]
Yeah, indeed. Yes, exactly. Yeah. No. I think that if, they're a certain, not just fish, but any kind of food that is being lucky to be picked by the Chinese consumers as something that they like to have, you know, God bless you.
If it is actually caught from the world is going to be extinct in a very short period of time. But if it's can be produced like a ,if you can grow it, of course that would be better. But fish in this case is a, is something that we cannot, grow a lot of them. So that's the problem for the ocean.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:37:30]
I have a last question from my previous guest, Deborah Carter, who set up a business, basically in tech education and how to teach, children and young adults, more 21st century skills, like how we can build a career in our future, because she feels that current education doesn't really offer that in the formal education.
So it was actually all about education, but hadn't her last question because she's in business, and also looking at, more diversity in technology and how to bring that about. Her question was how can business people make it a habit to interact with people who are polar opposites different in terms of race, color, gender, sexual orientation, thoughts, politics.
So how can we make this a habit to really be able to transform business?
Carrie Chan:
[00:38:20]
I would say that that will be two layers of people. So, I'm sure and the under on the part of a team that is driving the business, I don't think that is something that people will skip, for example, in our case, sometimes we wonder so how this product could be sold in another continent, or how would people, for example, a certain religion or certain cultural preferences would, or would not consume this product.
And if that is the case, do we need to do something about it? I think for the people who is driving the business, it probably will be easily on the mind thinking about that because the market is becoming more international. The product from one part of the world could be sold the other part of the world, so and so forth.
However, I think the more challenge will be on the, as the company grows bigger, you have more people, like managers, director, that can do different thing. And how that we actually can implant into the day-to-day kind of thinking into incorporating that. I think I don't have a very good answer for that, but I think that for depends on how you usually, I found that the most effective way is actually put something along on the KPI.
And when you, when a KPI is on that, that team member or that manager or associate, then he, or she will actually say, so people are so pragmatic, they will just, you know, just take action on those that matters to them. And I think that how you, KPI would be very, very important. I think that is, that is really the hard way.
Just promoting and, you know, just. Suggesting people you do better about this is not going to happen. A lot of time, in particular company who has made some success, we have seen some business cases, is that at the beginning, everyone, every company was a startup. Right? And then once they have achieved to a certain level, they basically what worked for them in the past, may not work for them now.
And also the world has changed. People who are affecting the business and ways and everything would change. So I think that it will definitely benefit business to stay open, to diverse views political views from different culture, et cetera. Because they, if they do not do so, they could become irrelevant.
You know, depending it just depends on time. If they, if they're not, updated with respect, what the world is doing.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:41:03]
Yeah. And then KPI's is a very practical approach, but I like your comparison with a startup because that's when, usually there are so many different, there is no hierarchy, right?
So a lot of voices have equal gravity. So do you have a question for my next guest?
Carrie Chan:
[00:41:22]
Yes I have a question that I usually ask myself or ask some other people, is that how to bring innovation to a big corporation who may not have a system in place. They do not have a corporate VC. They do not have an innovation team.
But then they know that they need to do something. But then, they don't have the people who are, who are in the, who are in that position, who can actually internalize it in the innovation. And then I think from the other perspective, is that how established company can naturally incorporate innovation and incorporate innovative process into the, into the business.
So I think that, that would be my question. Yeah. That's for benefit of both sides.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:42:08]
Well, I wish you to success with your next steps, and I'll definitely be following it. I noticed for myself that I think, oh, it's so new and I'm quite on the innovation side. But you know, is this the right path?
How can we make sure it goes right? So I wanted to thank you for taking the time to talk to me and my listeners.
Carrie Chan:
[00:42:27]
Thank you very much Tessa for the opportunity. I really enjoy the chat as well as I really liked that you make the social entrepreneur and also this podcast that actually a platform.
I listen to, the other, like, the concrete one, the marine concrete and also the prototyping of the leg, you know, this bring together a very interesting combination that curation of different solutions from different parts of the world. I think that is very diverse. And I think it's very good to actually listen to what other people have been doing, what other solutions out there.
So yeah. Very good platform. Yeah.
Tessa Wernink:
[00:43:16]
Obviously hearing my guests say they enjoy the show is nice. When Impossible and I set out to make the series, we decided to approach it like any entrepreneur, through prototyping. And we've learned a lot. We could leave it here with a lot of invaluable lessons and a great global community of new friends shifting the world for the better, but we want to keep on building and offering a platform for positive stories and business. In fact, we're in the creative process of concepting season two. If you, as a listener, have any ideas about what you would like to hear about, please drop me a line@helloatwhatifwegetitright.com.
And if you want to see how planet centric design can have an impact on your business. You can download the toolkit at Impossible.com.